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   pistolero :thispersondoesnotexist: (p@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Tuesday, 30-Jan-2024 02:30:45 JST pistolero :thispersondoesnotexist:

   • iced depresso
   @verita84_uwu @icedquinn "Wayland is 20 years old and nobody wants it still." -t. future
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     a7 (a7@miss.mouse.services)'s status on Tuesday, 30-Jan-2024 02:43:00 JST a7

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     • iced depresso

     @p@freespeechextremist.com @verita84_uwu@poster.place @icedquinn@blob.cat have you seen arcan? looks pretty cool

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     pistolero :thispersondoesnotexist: (p@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Tuesday, 30-Jan-2024 02:43:27 JST pistolero :thispersondoesnotexist:

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     • iced depresso
     • a7
     @a7 @icedquinn I haven't, I don't know what it is.
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     a7 (a7@miss.mouse.services)'s status on Tuesday, 30-Jan-2024 02:47:35 JST a7

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     • iced depresso

     @p@freespeechextremist.com @icedquinn@blob.cat https://arcan-fe.com/
     actually looks kinda cool, the main desktop that exist for it kinda functions like rio at least in terms of use

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     pistolero :thispersondoesnotexist: (p@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Tuesday, 30-Jan-2024 02:53:22 JST pistolero :thispersondoesnotexist:

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     • iced depresso
     • a7
     @a7 @icedquinn If it's filesystem-based, that'd be cool. rio is fine as a window manager, but it's just fine: the main thing it gives you is that it fits perfectly with what :bwk: called "the tools approach" and fits really well with the rest of the OS. Like, you can grep a shell window running in another session. You can mount a remote display and then start sending it events and moving windows around.
     
     Like, on Linux, X11 fits how things work. I don't like how things work, but it fits.
     
     I typed "arcan" into the search engine and then "arcan window manager" because a bunch of irrelevant stuff popped up and this link was purple: https://arcan-fe.com/about/ . I must have looked at it at some point. It does look like if I were to replace X with something, this would be the thing. But X is X, Linux is Linux.
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     a7 (a7@miss.mouse.services)'s status on Tuesday, 30-Jan-2024 03:05:40 JST a7

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     • iced depresso

     @p@freespeechextremist.com @icedquinn@blob.cat wm i was thinking of is pipeworld i think

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     pistolero :thispersondoesnotexist: (p@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Tuesday, 30-Jan-2024 03:05:53 JST pistolero :thispersondoesnotexist:

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     • iced depresso
     • a7
     @a7 @icedquinn That sounds appealing!
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     pistolero :thispersondoesnotexist: (p@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Tuesday, 30-Jan-2024 03:44:54 JST pistolero :thispersondoesnotexist:

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     • iced depresso
     • a7
     @a7 @icedquinn This feller? https://github.com/letoram/pipeworld
     
     That actually does look pretty cool. (I had seen https://io10.dev/ , that's pretty cool shit.) I will have to read up on this when not working.
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     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Tuesday, 30-Jan-2024 03:46:05 JST iced depresso

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     • a7
     @p @a7 :neocat_thonk: i have been reverse quinned. people brought interesting things to me today.
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     a7 (a7@miss.mouse.services)'s status on Tuesday, 30-Jan-2024 03:47:43 JST a7

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     • iced depresso

     @p@freespeechextremist.com @icedquinn@blob.cat yes

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     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Tuesday, 30-Jan-2024 03:47:43 JST iced depresso

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     • a7
     @a7 @p btw that zoomable stuff is called a Raskin interface. he advocated things should work that way.
     
     nobody listened to him except game maker studio and one weird macos app that hacked your desktop to make it in to that
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     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Tuesday, 30-Jan-2024 03:53:11 JST iced depresso

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     • a7
     @a7 @p he was pretty big on emacs-esque controls where you hold modifier keys down (because of the obvious physical state of holding keys down) but wanted more modifier keys because they would do shit. he was put in charge of making one computer for compaq once, which ended up being like a machine that permanently ran wordpad and had no filesystem because the whole thing relied on your grepping around to find shit.
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     a7 (a7@miss.mouse.services)'s status on Tuesday, 30-Jan-2024 03:53:12 JST a7

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     • iced depresso

     @icedquinn@blob.cat @p@freespeechextremist.com i think ive been required to read some of his book https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Humane_Interface
     but it wasnt of my own accord so i dont remember much

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     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Tuesday, 30-Jan-2024 03:54:49 JST iced depresso

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     • iced depresso
     • a7
     @a7 @p he's partly right, it turns out. later studies after his death looked in to outlook mail users. it turns out the filer vs piler thing only favors filers when search engines suck. the pilers win out in the end because filing things in to a tree is just a shitty degraded form of a search index.
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     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Tuesday, 30-Jan-2024 03:57:09 JST iced depresso

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     • iced depresso
     • a7
     @a7 @p i still want a clone of The Brain because it did some neat stuff like that. was a pile of notes (like /z/) but you could kind of tag notes together in this visual graph. the idea is that you were supposed to, say, drop a bookmark in The Brain for each page you came across while doing a reading.
     
     then you would tag them spatially (it did the four cardinal directions, idk why)
     
     when you go to find something later it shows you the graph for each note. so you can do something like each link is "down" and then if that page goes on a tangent you can go "left," so finding old notes again involves searching for close enough and walking your original line of research until you find it again.
     
     super cool. not 200$ a year subscription vig cool.
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     pistolero :thispersondoesnotexist: (p@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Tuesday, 30-Jan-2024 04:03:53 JST pistolero :thispersondoesnotexist:

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     • iced depresso
     • a7
     @icedquinn @a7 Yep; the Canon Cat seems like it would have been very cool to work with.
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     pistolero :thispersondoesnotexist: (p@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Tuesday, 30-Jan-2024 04:03:59 JST pistolero :thispersondoesnotexist:

     in reply to

     • iced depresso
     • a7
     @icedquinn @a7 The cool thing about io10.dev is that you can get, by means of some static content (static from the server's point of view: you can just clone the repo and serve it as static assets), a browser on a standard fluoridated environment to give you a pretty reasonable environment to do normal computing.
     
     I should get back to work but did get fascinated by pipeworld for a minute. It looks like it's full of stuff that I wanted, although it also is full of some stuff that I didn't:
     
     > pipe(“find /usr”, “grep –line-buffered share”)
     
     (Setting aside that he's using some kind of :fluoride: markdown processor :fluoride: that turns U+0022 into U+201c.)
     
     I experimented with this kind of thing a long time back. It's just not going to match the shell. The bare words and the convenience are features for interactive hacking, not bugs. The shell's syntax is specialized for creating this kind of pipeline to fit things together, so it's a moderate bummer that pipeworld, a thing for interactive hacking, picked "not pipes". The rest of it, the data encoding and all of it, that's amazing (or at least the demo is).
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     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Tuesday, 30-Jan-2024 04:04:41 JST iced depresso

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     • a7
     @p @a7
     > canon
     :blobcatgooglycry: i was close
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     pistolero :thispersondoesnotexist: (p@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Tuesday, 30-Jan-2024 04:10:38 JST pistolero :thispersondoesnotexist:

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     • iced depresso
     • Johnny Peligro
     @mischievoustomato @icedquinn @verita84_uwu People love McDonald's. :shrug_akko:
     
     If we're lucky, the YOLD people all flock to Wayland and then they wander off with the rest of the people that want a DE and to use Linux the same way people use Windows. Linux might have a chance at being good again after that.
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     Johnny Peligro (mischievoustomato@rebased.taihou.website)'s status on Tuesday, 30-Jan-2024 04:10:39 JST Johnny Peligro

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     • iced depresso
     i :transheart: wayland
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     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Tuesday, 30-Jan-2024 04:11:36 JST iced depresso

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     • Johnny Peligro
     @p @verita84_uwu @mischievoustomato i'm coming to the realization wayland will never be good until i fix it and i kind of want to do other things with my life :comfyglare:
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     pistolero :thispersondoesnotexist: (p@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Tuesday, 30-Jan-2024 04:32:54 JST pistolero :thispersondoesnotexist:

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     • iced depresso
     • a7
     @icedquinn @a7
     
     > filing things in to a tree is just a shitty degraded form of a search index.
     
     No, no, this is like saying that you don't need to name something as long as you can point at it.
     
     Having used both a Terrible iThing and a real computer, I can say that a real computer is nicer for most tasks that I want to use a computer for. The concept of a place is not mutually exclusive with the concept of a search index. Search indexes are fine if you remember what you want. Sometimes I don't even know what I want, but I know where it is: you can't replace "walking around the neighborhood" with "type the thing you hope to find into Yelp". With named things in a place, I can communicate this with other people. (I think coders that do a tour of duty in tech support end up cured of some of their notions about UIs. You can communicate a shell one-liner much easier than you can communicate )
     
     I also can't search the entire internet: just searching the web is a big enough pain in the ass half the time. It's simple enough to index your own stuff, but indexing the system's stuff adds in a lot of cases context that you don't want and in a lot of other cases, misses things you want. Indexing the web is a large task. Indexing the entire net is another thing entirely, no one's even attempted it. You get these massive efforts like Shodan and all they do is index the type of thing that sends whatever the data is, it doesn't even have the data.
     
     > outlook mail users.
     
     I think this is the problem. That kind of study gives you data that is over-fit for the task, you can't really extrapolate. I don't need to communicate a specific thing by name to anyone if I'm looking for something in my inbox or I want to send someone something. Paths, and more generally URLs, are pass-by-reference; email is pass-by-value.
     
     Incidentally, on this topic, Octopus is still very cool and a pretty interesting thing. One of the fun parts is that it's this tiling UI mostly concerned with text, but it's also fully serializable, and that makes it possible to do playback. (mycroftiv's hubfs stuff had a chunk of that but he just used rio and acme. It was cool that he'd be able to avoid configuring a system by just interactively typing scripts and then the system got into a state he wanted and he'd just play it back on boot, so even if machines went down and came back, he barely noticed.) I used Octopus for a while; the upside is it's one of the nicest environments I've used, probably the only one that is both persistent and device-independent, the downside is that it required discarding a lot of things that you get from Inferno.
     2006--building_the_octopus.pdf
     2006--give_me_back_my_personal_mainframe.pdf
     2007--distributed_smart_spaces.pdf
     2007--octopus_as_middleware.pdf
     2007--styx_batching_for_high_latency.pdf
     2007--towards_persistent_distributed_interfaces.pdf
     2007--ui_in_octopus.pdf
     2008--octopus_user_manual_2nd_ed.pdf
     2008--using_the_octopus.pdf
     2009--batching_design_pattern.pdf
     2010--upperware_resources.pdf
     2011--improving_styx_high_latency.pdf
     2012--octopus_upperware_based_system.ps
     2012--personal_pervasive_environments.pdf
     belt.pdf
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     iced depresso (icedquinn@blob.cat)'s status on Tuesday, 30-Jan-2024 04:35:49 JST iced depresso

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     • a7
     @p @a7
     > No, no, this is like saying that you don't need to name something as long as you can point at it.
     
     this is somewhat accurate.
     
     > iThing
     
     i think its more that all things exist amorphously in the data store (ex. venti) and then you impose order upon it with outlines. the lost art of having outlines with cloning support.
     
     > 15 attachments
     
     my blob in crepes zip exists for a reason :neocat_googly_shocked:
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     pistolero :thispersondoesnotexist: (p@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Tuesday, 30-Jan-2024 05:30:00 JST pistolero :thispersondoesnotexist:

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     • iced depresso
     • Johnny Peligro
     @mischievoustomato @icedquinn @verita84_uwu Exactly. Same UI doesn't have to be for everyone, I cannot stand GNOME.
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     Johnny Peligro (mischievoustomato@rebased.taihou.website)'s status on Tuesday, 30-Jan-2024 05:30:01 JST Johnny Peligro

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     • iced depresso
     well i like gnome so 🤷♂️ all i care is that what i use feels good and is good, and so far it is. whatever happens to x11 stuff i cant care about
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     Johnny Peligro (mischievoustomato@rebased.taihou.website)'s status on Tuesday, 30-Jan-2024 08:50:06 JST Johnny Peligro

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     • iced depresso
     i believe that as well, i dont want every de or whatever else to be the same
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