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   ADHDean (adhdeanasl@beige.party)'s status on Monday, 22-Jan-2024 01:37:02 JST ADHDean

   Pretty impressed at how we, as a society, still default to “this person has something to contribute to the group, so we value them” instead of “this person is a human being, so we value them no matter what they bring to the group.”

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     Sexy Moon (moon@shitposter.club)'s status on Monday, 22-Jan-2024 01:36:59 JST Sexy Moon

     in reply to

     • 🍉 estoy desesperada grabando acá con jota 🍉
     @mapachin mutualism and "all human beings have value" doesn't scale beyond dunbar's number and thus isn't a model for world politics.
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
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     🍉 estoy desesperada grabando acá con jota 🍉 (mapachin@novo-atlantis.null.media)'s status on Monday, 22-Jan-2024 01:37:01 JST 🍉 estoy desesperada grabando acá con jota 🍉

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     @adhdeanasl mutualism is alive and well in many cultures around the world, just not white culture and especially not white imperial culture. Some European cultures even get this, but it isn't compatible with whiteness.
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     🍉 estoy desesperada grabando acá con jota 🍉 (mapachin@novo-atlantis.null.media)'s status on Monday, 22-Jan-2024 03:01:33 JST 🍉 estoy desesperada grabando acá con jota 🍉

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     • Sexy Moon
     @Moon unlimited genocide works though right? Because everyone loves Israel and America and there's no hard feelings because "its just how you get your way in the real world" supposedly
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     Sexy Moon (moon@shitposter.club)'s status on Monday, 22-Jan-2024 03:01:33 JST Sexy Moon

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     • 🍉 estoy desesperada grabando acá con jota 🍉
     @mapachin you can't afford to trust people you don't know.
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     🍉 estoy desesperada grabando acá con jota 🍉 (mapachin@novo-atlantis.null.media)'s status on Monday, 22-Jan-2024 03:05:35 JST 🍉 estoy desesperada grabando acá con jota 🍉

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     • Sexy Moon
     • 🍉 estoy desesperada grabando acá con jota 🍉
     @Moon you have to value human life to get along with other humans its kind of the basic thing, doesn't mean we don't fight. We just have to have some basic respect that other people are people.
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     Sexy Moon (moon@shitposter.club)'s status on Monday, 22-Jan-2024 03:05:35 JST Sexy Moon

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     • 🍉 estoy desesperada grabando acá con jota 🍉
     @mapachin I agree with you but maybe we don't see eye to eye on what mutual respect and intrinsic human worth implies. I would say yes you should consider all humans to have intrinsic worth. You should recognize and respect the stranger's humanity, but you are necessarily going to have a transactional relationship with them until/if you can trust them, and in a world with so many people that means you'll never get away from treating a large portion of people transactionally.
     clacke likes this.
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     Sexy Moon (moon@shitposter.club)'s status on Monday, 22-Jan-2024 03:09:38 JST Sexy Moon

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     • Sexy Moon
     • 🍉 estoy desesperada grabando acá con jota 🍉
     @mapachin minor adjustment: you don't have to have a transactional relationship until you need to cooperate with the untrusted person. you can freely invite a stranger into your home and offer them kindness with no hope of reciprocity. I think it's a good thing to do.
     
     I respect your position I just think it has natural limits.
     Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: likes this.
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     Hyolobrika (hyolobrika@social.fbxl.net)'s status on Monday, 22-Jan-2024 05:43:18 JST Hyolobrika

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     • Sexy Moon
     • 🍉 estoy desesperada grabando acá con jota 🍉
     Then don't scale it 🤷♂️
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     triodug (triodug@fedi.triodug.com)'s status on Monday, 22-Jan-2024 06:40:34 JST triodug

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     • Sexy Moon
     • 🍉 estoy desesperada grabando acá con jota 🍉
     @mapachin @Moon how do you respect someone when they've got a knife in your chest?
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     🍉 estoy desesperada grabando acá con jota 🍉 (mapachin@novo-atlantis.null.media)'s status on Monday, 22-Jan-2024 06:40:35 JST 🍉 estoy desesperada grabando acá con jota 🍉

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     • Sexy Moon
     @Moon so you have to wipe them out? Never get to known them? Its silly primitive thinking. Lasting peace comes from mutual respect.
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     🍉 estoy desesperada grabando acá con jota 🍉 (mapachin@novo-atlantis.null.media)'s status on Tuesday, 23-Jan-2024 13:34:52 JST 🍉 estoy desesperada grabando acá con jota 🍉

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     • Siin
     @siin @adhdeanasl IMO it has more to do with feudalism than agriculture. Turtle Island had agriculture too pre contact, but ended up with functional mutualism anyway. We also had multiple different neolithic revolutions in the hemisphere and came out of it with cooperation as a deep part of our cultures. Though it could be the wheat/rice divide theory showing up in a different form, rice requires cooperation so the culture adapts to that mode of operation. Wheat allows for more individualistic modes of production. Maize and Potato are pretty labor intensive crops, so maybe that's part of it.
     clacke likes this.
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     Siin (siin@pagan.plus)'s status on Tuesday, 23-Jan-2024 13:34:53 JST Siin

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     @adhdeanasl It is very strange. Something that never existed until agriculture, until the "standard model" of human sexuality really became a thing (when property ownership made paternal certainty desirable)
     With its far reaching implications in our lives, yeah. Weird. Interesting thoughts, thank you for sharing

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     ADHDean (adhdeanasl@beige.party)'s status on Tuesday, 23-Jan-2024 13:34:55 JST ADHDean

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     • Siin

     @siin I spent an hour or so a couple years ago thinking about how transactional traditional weddings are. It bothers me.

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     Siin (siin@pagan.plus)'s status on Tuesday, 23-Jan-2024 13:34:56 JST Siin

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     @adhdeanasl This feels resonant, it's so difficult to exit transactional modes of thinking and depending on cultural context I think many people simply just *don't* have another framework for considering "value" or mutuality in spaces intrinsically rather than economically or in a way that's skewed towards their interests.

     Mutuality has to exist, right? In an interdependent functional space? But there *should* be recognition of intrinsic human value *first and foremost* -- I feel like this recognition is the best way to create the necessary give & take within any community/system where there's also understanding that sometimes what someone "brings to the table" won't exist (because they have health issues or need space, to give some examples) and that doesn't make them a less *valuable* person or member of the group.

     Ultimately though I think that social dysfunction skews towards economic or productive/production value because that's how our society would like us to measure ourselves, first of all, and it's a hard trap to remove oneself from.

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     🍉 estoy desesperada grabando acá con jota 🍉 (mapachin@novo-atlantis.null.media)'s status on Tuesday, 23-Jan-2024 13:34:59 JST 🍉 estoy desesperada grabando acá con jota 🍉

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     • Siin
     @siin @adhdeanasl here's the paper I'm referencing https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2352250X1930082X
     clacke likes this.
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     Siin (siin@pagan.plus)'s status on Tuesday, 23-Jan-2024 13:35:00 JST Siin

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     • 🍉 estoy desesperada grabando acá con jota 🍉

     @mapachin @adhdeanasl Thank you for adding this -- you're absolutely right. My response was inaccurate and ignored (as many of these conversations about humanity's "shift" to agriculture tend to -- my colonized brain talking) Indigenous agricultural practices that are ignored in most anthropological discussions because they didn't always "look" the same (among other reasons).

     It's interesting to consider the crops being produced and how that impacts the outcome or evolution of social structures, I hadn't heard/read that idea anywhere but am really fascinated to learn more. It makes sense, definitely, that different necessary modes of growing different foods would have different outcomes as to how people interacted with one another within communities.

     Thank you!