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   Abolisyonista (abolisyonista@ni.hil.ist)'s status on Sunday, 21-Jan-2024 16:12:47 JST Abolisyonista

   Some socialists I'm trying to work with think they ought debate transphobia in the open. They're really set on this. Am I wrong here thinking that transphobia is not to be debated but silenced? To debate is to give platform, to give platform is to spread transphobia. Am I right on this?

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     catch (catch56@kolektiva.social)'s status on Sunday, 21-Jan-2024 16:59:32 JST catch

     in reply to

     @abolisyonista do they mean writing a piece about transphobia, or debating a transphobe in public?

     I think the former is fine if done well, the latter always bad.

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     catch (catch56@kolektiva.social)'s status on Sunday, 21-Jan-2024 17:41:53 JST catch

     @abolisyonista there is no shortage of places you can read the words of transphobes, the Guardian for one. Transphobic activists often have links to the far right, sometimes very direct ones, whether the conspiracy end or US evangelicals or both. If they wouldn't debate Holocaust deniers or people who believe in Great Reset conspiracies, why debate TERFs?

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     catch (catch56@kolektiva.social)'s status on Sunday, 21-Jan-2024 17:41:53 JST catch

     in reply to

     @abolisyonista is there a specific person or group they are hoping to debate with?

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     catch (catch56@kolektiva.social)'s status on Sunday, 21-Jan-2024 18:46:39 JST catch

     @abolisyonista does this person already write/have videos about their transphobia? And are they some kind of socialist or just a transphobe? I am just trying to think of more arguments you could use.

     There's also the issue that live debates are just generally bad anyway, it's a competitive format that's not actually about challenging anyone's ideas and people on either side will rarely care who actually won, this is why the far right loves them so much.

     Written debates can be good in some contexts, but just not with bigots.

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     Criminal Ellie 🏴🏳️‍⚧️ (roadblock161_@kolektiva.social)'s status on Sunday, 21-Jan-2024 19:29:56 JST Criminal Ellie 🏴🏳️‍⚧️

     in reply to

     @abolisyonista debating transphobia not only gives it a platform, which is already terrible, but it also normalises transphobia as somewhat reasonable and worthy of debate. it's also an expression of privilege because most transphobes would never have an "earnest debate" about transphobia with a trans person, because transphobes do not see trans ppl as fully human or capable of "reasonable discussion".

     on a more personal note, I categorically refuse to see my own humanity or existence debated as if there are any genuine concerns worth having (there aren't) or as if it's anyone else's business (it's not). you either accept my freedom to live life to the fullest like you would for any cis person, or I will physically assault you.

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     catch (catch56@kolektiva.social)'s status on Sunday, 21-Jan-2024 19:33:05 JST catch

     @abolisyonista if he's posting this on social media can they just reply to him telling him he's an arsehole and debunking stuff? That is not really debate/platforming but might persuade them doing a formal debate is not necessary or worthwhile.

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     Red (redmiscreant@kolektiva.social)'s status on Monday, 22-Jan-2024 08:47:25 JST Red

     in reply to

     @abolisyonista
     I’m not really a “debate” person, but I think the main purpose that it can serve is to give more information that contrasts with current norms to people either questioning their current belief system, or people starting to strengthen new beliefs. For example an anarchist debating a mainstream liberal could give a new leftist an idea of what anarchism is and maybe spark some curiosity. However, platforming a transphobe only goes to give them room in the conversation. A person that is on the edge of being a transphobe probably needs more than an argument to begin to change, and the arguments of a transphobe probably won’t help that along. I think a general statement against transphobia is probably more productive than a debate.

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     Irenes (many) (irenes@mastodon.social)'s status on Monday, 22-Jan-2024 08:57:09 JST Irenes (many)

     in reply to

     @abolisyonista queer pride is already the rebuttal to hate. hate doesn't have any ideas.

     don't engage with hatred in ways that give that hatred a larger audience, or that allow it to set the terms of the discussion.

     note that this isn't a direct answer; "debate" is a notion that means different things to different people, so we don't find it to be useful in formulating this kind of guideline.