pettter
Aftonbladets senaste gräv om hur H&M's "klädåtervinning" till stor del är bluff, båg, och exploatering och miljöförstörelse av fattiga länder gör mig bara helt vansinnig.
Det som är värst är att det spelar i praktiken ingen roll hur mycket eller lite vi konsumenter faktiskt konsumerar eller på vilket sätt. Helt nya, oanvända kläder åker _också_ in i den här soppan.
Systemet är trasigt, marknaden kommer aldrig lösa detta!
pettter
@Talia I'd go further and say that the _market_ is the problem, but then again, I'm a communist.
Talia Hussain
@pettter I actually think the structure of the market itself is the problem - ie. how we make the market, the basic practices of retailers that bring goods to market. The market itself needs to be fixed, re-regulated at a fundamental level.
But yes, a total disaster area and no indication of serious interventions on the horizon
pettter
@Talia Sure, if you look for markets you'll find them everywhere, especially if you broaden the term to include anything that could be considered "a forum for exchange", but that's not really what is generally discussed when we're talking "market solutions" or "market restructurings", or _especially_ "market economics".
I don't think we should make important decision on how we use our resources based on "the market". Is that clearer?
Talia Hussain
@pettter I'd encourage you to think more about what 'the market' is and might be. Markets have been a feature of human social organisation for millennia, they aren't a neoliberal construct. Think of the Greek concept of the Agora, and how it encompasses different ideas including civic participation. Any form of human society will always have a forum for exchange, which is what a market is. The question is what market and what outcomes do we want
Talia Hussain
@pettter Yes, v clear - you've internalised a neoliberal understanding of the market. It's understandable, because we aren't presented with other options in our current culture of politics or economics. But we really need those missing alternative understandings and as long as you accept the neoliberal framing, you're having a discussion on limited terms
pettter
@Talia What in particular are you talking about in terms of alternative understandings, and why would you not use a different word than "market" to highlight how it would work better or differently?
pettter
@Talia That depends on what I'm trying to describe and in which context.
Talia Hussain
@pettter What word could you use?
pettter
@Talia Sure that sounds like a market. I'd like to get away from thinking about society and life as an exchange of goods and services though, since that seems like a supremely market-oriented way of thinking, and that's exactly what I'd like to get away from.
We're not individuals making atomized exchanges, we're participants in a living and changing society.
Talia Hussain
@pettter So, if you're trying to describe a forum for the exchange of goods or services, that's subject to informal norms and formal regulations... what would you call that if not a 'market'?
pettter
@Talia As you say, it's important to try to go beyond our ingrained ways of thinking about the world and find alternative ways of relating to society and to each other.
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