Notices by CedarTea (cedartea@mstdn.ca)

@hakan_geijer
Sure, no doubt. There's also the option for people to set up systems of exchange and sharing which are not markets. The world's our oyster and there are things between giant central councils and free markets.

@neonsnake

@neonsnake @hakan_geijer Agreed, but setting up a distribution system that's predicated on occasionally breaking into assholes' houses to liberate their possessions doesn't seem all that great to me. Would prefer to just see more appropriate distributions from the jump for the sake of a little social harmony.

@hakan_geijer
I promise I don't mean this as a cop out, but "it depends".

There are all sorts of solutions ranging from "hey I've got a food processor I don't need" to "we need to build a food processor factory" and a million options in between. The solution is going to depend on a lot of factors like how scarce they are, how important the need is to the community, how readily they're substituted, etc. I can't imagine the solution is the same in Toronto as it would be in Old Crow.

@neonsnake

@hakan_geijer
For some communities, it may well be a market mechanism. Others may choose a market, but with another countervailing check on the market behaviour. I don't think there's a one size fits all solution, but it *is* important that we understand the solutions that are available to us, and where their strengths and limitations lie.

I hope that doesn't seem like I'm dodging the question, because it's a totally valid one.

@neonsnake

@neonsnake
All good, you don't owe us any urgency :)

Agree that the best solution is just to solve the acute scarcity. Hope what I've been saying doesn't come across as "no markets for anything ever". I'm really just trying to communicate my suspicion of them as a tool for resolving distribution issues and why we shouldn't reach for them cavalierly. Ultimately, communities will make the decisions they make, and hopefully adjust if there are issues.

@hakan_geijer

@neonsnake 100% agree on the higher wages for so long as that state/market system creates that requirement. If and when we're beyond that is when we have more flexibility to imagine new worlds.

I tend to think there will be less scarcity than others do. I could be wrong. We should be making sure we can accommodate both possibilities and have the flexibility to change. I'm just not okay with making mobility and vision aids contingent on the amount of labour someone's put in.

@hakan_geijer

@neonsnake

Your food processor example is an interesting case for why I actually don't like markets as a rationing mechanism.

Let's say they're scarce in this scenario. Person A wants one as an assistive device, as you describe. Person B wants one because they prefer it to chopping by hand. Let's also say that person B has a lot more stuff worth trading than Person A, and is therefore able to outbid them on the market. Why should this be okay?

@hakan_geijer

@hakan_geijer @neonsnake

I don't generally make much distinction between goods being necessary or not, as I'm not personally the arbiter of that. I do tend to think we're post-scarcity on more than we might sometimes think. I also don't favour policing hours of work (I too dislike labour notes).

I generally see some sort of community assembly (and associated sub-group, etc) as the vehicle for making those broad decisions on production. If a good is scarce, there are decisions made on (1/?)

@hakan_geijer @neonsnake

distribution (rationing, etc.) as well as potentially some corrective action toward ameliorating that scarcity if the community decides. A market system is also a rationing system, and although it's not my favourite, I wouldn't necessarily count it out by default.

In terms of labour, those community vehicles would determine their levels of labour need and have people start selecting roles for themselves. If there's a disconnect between certain labour needs and (2/?)

@hakan_geijer @neonsnake

peoples' willingness to do the work, then decisions need to start being made. Is task really worth everyone's time? If nobody is willing to put in the work for the output, do we even want to do this? If the answer is still yes, then there needs to be some level of equitable labour distribution decision (rotations, lotteries, etc.) that people would need to agree to under whatever that groups decision making process is. Again, this *can* be decided to be a market, (3/?)

@hakan_geijer @neonsnake

but markets are just not what I typically advocate for as a rationing mechanism.

I do think your bringing up housing location is an interesting one though. The intersection of intangible, non-fungible, and innately scarce is a tricky combo. I'm not convinced markets are the best way to ration that, but I'm not so sure that there's any way to handle it which isn't contentious so... maybe?

Appreciate the discussion btw

(4/4)

@hakan_geijer @neonsnake

If I can provide a bit of a friendly rebuttal, I'd ask what the role of exchange is in a society that doesn't police access to material goods? Why would I trade for apples when I'm allowed to simply have them?

(Except in the case of some acute scarcity, but I'd argue markets are often a terrible mechanism to handle that when you really interrogate what's happening)

@hakan_geijer @neonsnake

Damn, those are some fancy trousers

@neonsnake
The unstated second half of that sentence is "Who will do the unpleasant jobs... if we don't threaten people with starvation?"

@neonsnake If I'm gonna imagine a stateless society, it's gonna be a wageless one too

@neonsnake Yeah, I'm personally pretty confidently against it in the long run, but it's not a hill I'd die on in 2024. Not a red line for being in movement.

@neonsnake Yeah I get what you're saying, I just have a very different conception of post-state post-capitalist economies where the question doesn't really make sense.

Like if everyone is being provided for, what does extra even look like? If we're not rationing beer, how do you give someone "above" the standard?

My conception is more in the realm of "you cook, I'll clean" divisions of labour. If someone's cleaning the bathroom, I'm not gonna bug them about taking out the trash.

@neonsnake Of course it's really not up to me. It's up to whatever the community decides will work for them. I'm just extremely suspicious of exchanging labour for material goods because it makes people's access contingent, and I consider that a very slippery slope to just reproducing capitalist relations.

@hakan_geijer Glad I could help! If you do go, the fishing outports of Newfoundland and the First Nations culture in Yukon both make great bookend experiences for those hikes.

I'm actually pretty drawn to that SW US high desert as well. Just seems like such a different experience to the types of hikes I'm used to.

@hakan_geijer The thought of passing through villages on a hike hadn't occurred to me until you said it. That's definitely a much more European (and to limited extent USian) hiking experience compared to here in Canada. Totally agree though that it would break that backcountry mental state.

If you ever get the desire and opportunity to do some Canadian hiking, I think you'd probably really enjoy Gros Morne (Newfoundland) or Tombstone (Yukon).