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debating whether it's the kernel or the POSIX interfaces implemented by GNU libc, GNU bash and GNU coreutils and whatnot that define an operating system is no more than an interesting way to overcome some common excuses to deny the GNU system the recognition it deserves in the history of computing. they're not really relevant. most people familiar with that history will acknowledge the role of unix, rather than attempt to write it out of history like they do to gnu with a vengeance.
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GNU and BSD are different projects with different heritage, despite sharing common roots on Unix
I suppose one could argue that Alpine is not GNU in the same sense that GNU's Not Unix: Alpine set out, sort of in a crazy villain mad pursuit, to replace GNU components in GNU/Linux just like GNU set out to replace Unix components in Unix. while GNU made far-better-than-Unix components while at that, Alpine selected inferior ones, but nevertheless Alpine accomplished its mission of getting to a GNU-free system. it's hardly distinguishable from GNU/Linux in heritage and appearance, all the way from Alpine to GNU/Linux to Unix. so I conclude that Alpine managed to put together a GNU-free GNU/Linux Unix-y system. which is quite ironic, if they set out to rid themselves of GNU in their primary qualifier :-)
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Well, how do we distinguish between GNU systems and BSDs? And FSF doesn't seem to recognize Alpine as a GNU system either (the #justlinux section of their FAQ). Same goes to the Alpine devs: they recognize Debian and such as GNU+Linux but think that Alpine isn't GNU+Linux. IMHO, something is from a different operating system family when it requires compatibility layers to launch software from other types of OSs (like with Windows software requiring Wine).
Have other OS families ever switched C libraries tho? Coreutils?
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GNU+Linux is good. the slash has been thoroughly abused and misunderstood, too.
the only catch for me is that GNU+Linux-libre comes across arithmetically undesirable ;-)
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@lxo I honestly prefer calling it GNU+Linux because it's kinda exhausting to explain that you're supposed to say the slash. I think the name "GNU/Linux" makes it common to omit the slash, rarely anyone gets it right in my experience and there's no escaping it, it's spreading like wildfire even between those who prefer calling the system GNU/Linux.
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That's certainly an interesting way to look at it. Seems like there are different points of view not only in the Linux vs GNU+Linux debate but also between those who support calling it GNU+Linux as well. And then there's an internal debate of whether it's better to call it GNU/Linux, GNU+Linux or LiGNUx and some people downright omit the slash and call it GNU Linux. So many nuances.
And no, I don't think Alpine Linux's devs did it just to spite the GNU Project. They probably did it simply to make it lighter on resources for embedded and container use. Also, there is a belief that the glibc and coreutils' code isn't tidy enough, although if they thought so it would have been nice of them to contribute their alternative solutions to the GNU Project which they did not do for whatever reason.
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lignux, meaning a combination for gnu and linux, was proposed and rejected with such violence that I do not recommend using it unless you really mean to ruffle those feathers and attract hatred towards you
I suppose you're right that I shouldn't attribute to Alpine developers the spite that maybe comes only from GNU haters that might not even be related to Alpine. but I'm pretty sure I've seen that sort of GNU-free goal expressed by people involved with Alpine, and there seemed to be an emotional background that seemed far stronger than any technical rationale that may have driven the development of the individual components. to each their own, I guess ;-)
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LiGNUx would have been fine, but the reactions were incredibly explosive and violent when it was first proposed back in mid '90s, which got us to GNU/Linux, GNU+Linux and *-*-linux-gnu quadruplets.
GNU+Linux is a great way to refer to it, and shortening to GPL is a delicious coincidence I hadn't come across before. don't you worry about [GNU] Linux-libre, it's not quite as important.
I'm not sure I'd come across Ariadne's article before, but I definitely didn't get the idea that she was supportive of the GNU/Linux naming convention back when I was in contact with her in the fediverse.
that's nice. I still get a sense that she denies (or doesn't realize) the heritage and the political significance of GNU's role in the history that enabled Alpine to be what it is, but... it still feels to me like progress ;-)
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People hate the name LiGNUx? The only objections to it that I have is that it looks bizarre and it isn't as obvious that GNU's in it, some people may not notice it or perhaps think it's some name of an obscure distro or something (like GNewSense). But I certainly don't hate it, just think that GNU+Linux looks cooler and clearer.
Fun fact: if you abbreviate "GNU+Linux" it becomes GPL. That's a sign.
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hyperbola is going for the openbsd kernel only AFAIK. it will still be gnu userland
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@lxo I think that the real reason stuff was ported to Alpine at all is because Alpine is Linux-based and UNIX-like. musl seems to not be ready for desktops, glibc isn't going to be replaced any time soon. But Google definitely tries. Just look at Fucsia.
Hyperbola has plans to utilize OpenBSD without proprietary blobs. Just shows that all Unix-likes are united against the Windows menace and rely on each others' developments to grow, making the fully libre Unix-like future possible.
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I certainly recognize the heritage of GNU in Alpine, regardless of whether it can be considered GNU/Linux or not. Denying that is just blindness. It's like denying that GNU carries the heritage of UNIX. I don't know why somebody would do something like that, it's historical denialism.
Alexandre Oliva
CyberSpook??
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